Debate- Linkage; Is it really vintage??

[DJRacing]

Linkage- Is it really Vintage?

How about another debate? Pick the side you want to be on and have your say. Just remember to keep it all fun, this isn’t suppose to be a shit fight but light humoured and fun. Keep the politics out and dial the dampening in, if you are happy to have sag where you shouldn’t, then join the debate and bounce along on your side of the track!!!!

Linkage- Is it really Vintage??

[fatboycrash]

My opinion, from a newbie to VMX.
Who gives a rats arse? As long as the bike is 20 years or older and the bloke on it has the right attitude, come on out for a ride. Jebus you did well mate, flogged me! Wanna beer?

[paul]

out of interest who made the linkage decision any way

[Maico31]

Good question. Honda was first to put it into production in '81 if you don't count the uni trak as a true linkage rear end.

[Nathan S]

Yes.
The first linkage bikes are over a quarter of a century old now.

To claim that a CR-RB is 'just like a 2008 model' is laughable - look at the double discs, power valve, USD cartridge forks, safety seat, and wildly different linkage design of a CR-RK (only 8 years later - still an old bike by most standards), and try to claim that the 81 model is 'the same'.
In terms of design features, a XL250RF is more like the CR250RK than the CR250RB is...

Further, if the anti-rear-linkage argument was successful, where does that leave the YZ125H, with water-cooling but a non-linakage rear? Is it more or less 'vintage' than a RX250X, which is air-cooled but with a linkage rear?
VMX is about celebrating old dirt bikes. It is about looking back at the steps that have brought the modern dirt-bike world to where it is today.
To quibble over whether one 25+ year old dirt bike is more or less vintage than another, is pointless and destructive.

For racing, it is reasonable to seperate the linkage rear bikes from the non-linkage rear ones (Evo vs pre-85) as the early 1980s were a time of rapid improvement in MX bikes - so while the early water-cooled and/or linkage bikes weren't neccasarly a huge improvement over their air-cooled, non-linkage predecessors (coughyamahacough), they do mark the turning point - and one that is easily identifiable and enforcable at scrutiny.

[DJRacing]

 I think we would all agree that the linkage bikes are here to stay in VMX, and of course there is nothing wrong with that but, I thought we could have a good debate on the subject, not a poll, this is surpose to be tongue in cheek, have a laugh with it, pull some punches. Just come out with afirmative or negative and why??

[crs-and-rms]

i think they have a place in vmx i have two cr250 REs one ive had from new out of all my bikes this one means more to me than the other 12  twin shock that i have its 24 years old now so i think it fits into vmx if we stopped these bikes from vmx then vmx will die in ten years time ,as we get older and our injurys get worse guys who rode in the early to late 80s will take over then it will be guys from the 90s next and so on .

[firko]

One of the things that defined Vintage Motocross was that the bikes looked, felt and performed vastly different to the modern alternative. Reliving or reviving the days when the sport wasn't as easy was the challenge that VMX offered.
By introducing the newer divisions too quickly we run the risk of obliterating the line that seperated Vintage from Modern.

The argument that a 20 year old bike is vastly inferior to a modern bike is quite valid but if you factor in that shock absorber and linkage swaps, cartridge and USD forks, V force reeds, modern port work and pipes and programmable digital ignitions can very easily be adapted to a pre 90 linkage bike, that diferential becomes even blurrier.

I'm not at all against our sport progressing, as I have often been accused. What I am calling for is to slow down the introduction of new classes. With the calls to introduce pre 90 likely to be heard we are introducing new divisions quicker than modern bikes are progressing. At this rate within 10 years we will have caught up with modern technology. Then where do we go?

My call (again) is to leave the progress until the Evo and Pre 85 classes are fully utilised. As it is right now Evo is running at about 40% capacity and Pre '85 less than that. We need to look after the future of our sport by carefully introducing new rules. If Pre 90 does come in the eligibility rules need to be bulletproofed by stipulating exactly what can and can't be used from newer models. If we don't you can kiss what we now know as vintage racing goodbye forever.

[Maicojames]

Here in Us we have some movements to such classes. In our local club in Texas, TVRC we have been running a decade class for..well, about a decade. While it seemed like a good idea back then, realize that now a 98YZF400 is a decade bike-and who of us could really tell a YZF450 from a 426,400?....As far as pre-90-it may be fun to have some of these bikes included regionally at meets, but there is a consequence. To me, only the last 500cc bikes from this era matter(JMO).-and if you look at what is happening now, with SVRG, AVDRA split from AHRMA-and TVRC now running modern support( guess who is a big TVRC sponsor-initials are V.I.)-with the decade bikes, just scored separately...well, I am going to miss some TVRC races. Hell, there wasa "practice day" at the local mx night track I used to race on( home of 12+ fatal accidents since 96)-and this track is not that ridable on even an 83-84 bike. Well, everyone was riding their modern bikes.

Hell, is this vintage? This is about old bikes, not old people. We now have some 20s -40s yr olds starting vintage racing-mainly on the 80-81 bikes(EVO?)-but then they go on to build vintage(pre-75) , and historic(pre-78) bikes as well. The era of disc to 90 is tough anyway. Many bikes of the era clearly outperforemd others in given years. The reality would be all on 89 model bikes( by 89 most has USD forks-so just hide the 2008 forks to look like 89 USD forks) the rear suspension was close( a shock rebuild away from modern), the ignition, powervalve etc was there. Hell, I could take an 89CR250 and have it look very stock -or"era" and have a bike performing like the last two stroke 250s, why because it wouldnt take much.

Then we have the motive, for many it may be what is cheap( which is important)-but the reality is it is driven by suppliers who can maybe make a few bucks with reasonalble accessories-or at least not lose their ass. How bout the historical signifigance of this era? Well, I am 40 in July and frankly, rode these bikes-but can spaek little of their historical signifigance( with a few exceptions-like 85CR500, 86KX500, 87Cr250-but that's about it). We still have many pre 85 bikes to get going(though here in US we need to allow a retrofit of drum to original disc brake bikes of pre85)-and support the classes we have.

It is not yet time to have these bikes in vintage racing-they will obsolete the others, due to thier performance, and the ease of parts, and cost in many cases.
There is a market for an old farts class of mdern bikes on smoother tracks or in a club, but that , is not vintage racing. Just the opinion of one dissenting American(Yank?), that an $3 will get cup of java

[vandy010]

 Linkage; Is it really vintage??
my opinion=nup! no way!
my heart belongs to the pre-75 era although i still have a lot to learn.
i'd love a pre 60's bike but my knowledge of these old beauties is still too limited.
whats the point Vandy?
take a look at a pre 60 or earlier and they just screem VINTAGE!
even a pre 70 has that vintage look/feel to it.
they're a raw lump of a thing with crap gearboxs/suspension/brakes & ergo's etc
now the linkage bikes definately in my books have a much more modern feel to them and are capable of handling a modern mx track but the earlier ones may struggle with supercross.
vintage to me means the raw unrefined lumps of bikes
and not the
more capable streamlined machines.
Vandy says NO!

[Yamaboy]

Hallelujah brothers! At last the silent majority have decided to speak up about the dumbing down of vintage motocross.
The whole thing about the sport is to celebrate and era that has long gone. By continually introducing newer and newer classes we are distancing ourselves from the very reason that vintage became so popular. Learn to ride a 7" and 4" travel bike and as other posters have stated, challenge yourself. Anyone can ride a modern bike. I sold my evo 465 Yamaha because I realised that it was too far from what I thought vintage racing was. A 1989 Honda CR500 with V reeds, fat pipe and trick suspension is not a vintage bike. Let's get real.

[Nathan S]

When did "linkage" turn into "pre-90"!?

We've already got a pre-85 class, which is mostly populated by bikes with linkage rear ends. 

[Maicojames]

i think they have a place in vmx i have two cr250 REs one ive had from new out of all my bikes this one means more to me than the other 12  twin shock that i have its 24 years old now so i think it fits into vmx if we stopped these bikes from vmx then vmx will die in ten years time ,as we get older and our injurys get worse guys who rode in the early to late 80s will take over then it will be guys from the 90s next and so on .

When did a linkage debate turn to pre-90? Nathan-right about here I would say.( see above)-sorry, there were not many of us riding in late 80s/early 90s(until I found Vintae racing in 91, then again raced modern only in 96-97). So, yes it will have to come from newer influx, yet you have to know that from about 66-76 the birth rate was lower(with 68 and 76 being two very lows)-due to many factors, mostly the very dedicated raced much from say 86-93-then this Mc Grath guy came along and brougt attention back to mx.
Form what I have seen, riders new to VMX make little deleineation between one vintage bike or another-particularly the 85-91 era. Frankly, there is little to romance about this era, other than puke graphics, too big hair etc( I say this as one who had the puke graphics and too big hair), not like someone a bit older recalling the fun they had on an early YZ, or one of the first RMs, or even one of the first waterpumpers.

These are still cool bikes, like an 89 KTM500 I saw posted-and should be ridden. In fact, many of these bikes can be bought cheap, and make great practice bikes for those who have time to practice-saving wear and tear on the earlier bikes.

Well, at least I am not the only one...hell, I got to race an 89 RM250 when new, I only got to race a 77 Maico(which I dreamed of having at age 9) in vintage racing-and there's still a lot of old bikes I want to ride/race someday. We can get people in with the EVO/Pre-85 bikes-and those who like the scene will expand and gain interest in the older bikes.
Maybe Vintage Motocross is not for everyone, but the passionate will do it.

It has been said that VMX will die out when the baby boomers get too old to do it. By keeping focus on important bikes, and adding new classes when needed-we can prevent this, and continue our sport long past these predictions.   

[firko]

We need to get rid of this mentality where we need to find a place in the vintage world for every bike. Instead of building a class for your bike, build a bike for one of the many classes available!

[BAHNZY]

In the automotive industry, Vintage is commonly defined as a car built between the start of 1919 and the end of 1930.
There is little debate about the start date of the Vintage period, but the end date is a matter of a little more debate. The British definition is strict about 1930 being the cut-off, while some American sources prefer 1925 since it is the pre-classic car period as defined by the Classic Car Club of America. So how have we come to a point in time that we nominate anything post 1930 as being vintage?

If you apply the 25 year rule which many so commonly do, we go back to 1982 (ish). So the XE Falcon was around, vintage I don’t think so. (perhaps the Holden boys may think so!) Holden had the VH Commodore, Shitbox yes, Vintage NO. One of the best movies ever made in Australia was released, Running On Empty, Classic yes, Vintage not. So we come to the first of the linkage rear ends, whilst there design may have come from engineers born in the vintage era, they are no more vintage than the XE falcon, even if Dick Johnson drove it on the mountain. Perhaps Dick maybe considered vintage now days?